How do you navigate the challenging journey of finding your authentic vocation amid the pressures of success and expectations? In this intimate conversation, Amiel Handelsman shares his evolving path from leadership development coach to podcaster and writer, exploring the internal tensions between pragmatism and spirituality that shaped his work. Through candid discussion of his practices, fears, and transformations, Amiel reveals how listening deeply to life’s calling requires both fierce dedication and humble surrender. This episode offers profound insights for anyone grappling with their own vocational evolution, highlighting how true purpose emerges through patient attention to what wants to be expressed through us.
Chapter 1: The Seeds of Change (00:00 – 11:40)
Starting with casual conversation about podcasting, Amiel shares his recent life changes, including his move to Ann Arbor and shift away from full-time coaching. The discussion explores his emerging need to express his own voice more directly, particularly through writing and his new podcast focused on global issues.
Chapter 2: The Inner Work of Expression (11:40 – 24:45)
Diving deeper into the personal journey, Amiel discusses how he developed the capacity to listen to his inner life, supported by therapy, spiritual practice, and his relationship with his wife Julie. He explores the challenge of transforming anger into clear expression, especially when writing about complex global issues.
Chapter 3: Finding the True Scale of Impact (24:45 – 34:55)
The conversation turns to the tension between grandiose ambitions and finding authentic, sustainable ways to contribute. Amiel shares his process of letting go of the need for widespread recognition and finding satisfaction in meaningful connections with fewer people.
Chapter 4: Practices and Support Systems (34:55 – 44:40)
A practical exploration of the specific practices and life changes that have supported Amiel’s evolution, including morning routines, sobriety, sleep habits, and the importance of addressing fundamental needs. The discussion highlights how small, consistent practices over time enable larger transformations.
Chapter 5: The Role of Dedication (44:40 – 51:35)
The conversation explores how long-term commitment and dedication to practice, especially when combined with service to something larger than oneself, supports vocational development. Amiel shares insights about the importance of plateaus in growth and the power of dedicating one’s practice to others.
Chapter 6: The Healing Power of Authentic Conversation (51:35 – end)
The episode concludes with reflections on how sharing specific, personal stories can illuminate possibilities for others, and how genuine conversation creates unexpected opportunities for mutual growth and healing.
Full Transcript
00:04.39
Adam
Hey Amiel, welcome good to see you.
00:07.33
Amiel
Hey Adam thanks so much good to see you.
00:13.58
Adam
Um, we were just chatting back and forth about all the supposedly the ease of doing podcast these days except when something goes wrong then you have to sit there and troubleshoot it forever. Yeah.
00:28.60
Amiel
It’s It’s very easy except when it’s not easy and and then when it’s not easy and it becomes easy. It takes a while to realize that it’s actually now easy right.
00:31.39
Adam
Ah, metaphor for life. Maybe.
00:39.80
Adam
I know I know I know well I’m super happy to be talking with you today and this has been a kind of a long time coming and we’ve been trying to get together for at least a few months now yeah
00:52.95
Amiel
Yes, yes, I’m glad we’re we’re pulling it off.
00:58.78
Adam
I Mean as a start I Just love to hear what are you up to these days.
01:04.57
Amiel
Yeah, well I’m now living in Ann Arbor Michigan which is where I grew up after 21 years on the West Coast so geographically I’m in the midwest in a college town. Um I live with my wife Julie. Who is a new ventures west graduate and diamond approach teacher which means I have to be really on my game in public now that I’m married to a teacher the diamond approach and in private and we have two sons Jacob and Zander.
01:25.58
Adam
Who.
01:31.95
Adam
O o.
01:40.81
Amiel
And I’m still coaching although much less than I used to and I’m still doing leadership development mostly teaching and facilitating and I’m writing and podcasting.
01:54.42
Adam
Um, fantastic. Yeah I remember you mentioning that big milestone for Julie that’s significant stepping into teaching yeah makes a law. Yeah.
01:59.19
Amiel
It takes it takes a long time and a lot of practice.
02:08.79
Adam
I Know one of the things I was curious about and one of the things we do I like to focus on in the show is like the the journey people have been on and in particular what they’re learning about Um, what wants to come through them into the world. You know sometimes it’s called vocation.
02:28.90
Adam
The way in which they feel like what’s their contribution to make and we were chatting about this a little bit I think one of the things that contributed to my excitement for getting us scheduled is your own evolvement and how your understanding like what it is you want to be up to and. Bringing forward into the World. So even here in the introduction you named you know coaching but less doing a little bit of leadership development. Maybe a little less and from when I understand more focus on writing and you have this new podcast. How my view Grew. So I’m curious like how you’re understanding like what you want to bring forward into the world and how it’s been changing over time for yourself.
03:10.17
Amiel
Yeah I Really appreciated that you were curious about that and the timing is is great because I’m in a period of unsettlement and exploration which is a great moment to look back and look.
03:21.69
Adam
Oh.
03:30.10
Amiel
Today and maybe look ahead I’m curious. Is there a particular place you would want me to start that discussion.
03:38.87
Adam
Well maybe what place we can go is because I know it’s ah fairly fresh is this new initiative. You’re on the how my view grew podcast that you started and maybe some of what precipitated that coming out.
03:50.92
Amiel
Absolutely so how my view grew is a podcast that I started in March and we’re just about done with season 1 and it combines a skill set that I’ve been using for 30 years which is interviewing people. Researching and preparing along with some new skills which is creating not just an interview but a production. Fortunately I have a producer to help me to produce but he doesn’t do it all. I.
04:19.99
Adam
Who.
04:29.54
Amiel
Learn to add narration and audio footage so people when we’re telling people stories. They can have news shows or people speaking thirty years ago and have the listener kind of go back in time. That’s very new for me. It’s really wonderful and it’s a lot of work.
04:42.90
Adam
O o.
04:47.40
Amiel
So on ah on sort of a skill set. It’s mostly things that I’ve been familiar with and comfortable with and enjoy doing with a couple of new things in terms of the focus this the focus is on big global messes complex challenges. Democracy climate change Ukraine and Russia Israel Hamas Gaza Middle East all really sense wrenching topics with some possibilities inherent in them but very very different as a language. Then? how do we build effective teams and organizations or grow ourselves as leaders and people not completely different but definitely different and this curiosity about the world. This is not new at all. Its I’m finally dedicating something to it 100 % over the years I had an I’ve had a newsletter for 2025 years with different names and I’m remembering the initial production quality of it which is very simple today. But.
05:48.75
Adam
O.
06:04.59
Amiel
Back Twenty five years ago not great and as I think about this podcast compared to the previous one I’m not interlacing global challenges in between team leadership and organizational leadership. It is the main focus and so it’s an interesting question as to well why is that and that’s the question of vocation.
06:28.94
Adam
Yeah, yeah, exactly and I think it’s Parker Palmer who says you know listening to your life is one of the ways to start to step in and discern like what’s my unique vocation in the world and I’m curious as you were like listening or you know you’ve been saying. Doing this kind of work for decades now. What were you hearing or what were you seeing that had you like more directly turned toward these big complex things without feeling the need to thread it into leadership or um, otherwise. Weave it into some other topic but just really turn toward it more directly.
07:07.55
Amiel
That’s a great question just to reflect on that I think since I turned 50 or and or since I became aware that I was going to turn fifty like six months before that just now going back. Forward. Four and a half years I became aware of. We felt like it’s more than a halfway point in life most likely there’s something about that date and I started to feel quite a bit of anxiety and getting in touch with the fear of death.
07:32.26
Adam
P.
07:43.61
Amiel
Which erner specker says we we deny death and we even deny the fear of death in many many different ways and how we deny it changes from when we’re a kid to teenager young adult. So I began to viscerally feel it. It’s a terror. It’s an immense terror and so that feeling which I still periodically encounter had me saying oh god and then I was what what if I died and what what hasn’t been given what hasn’t been received and what hasn’t been given. So that was 1 thing like what really matters a second is I noticed myself in 1 on one coaching not being as interested as I have been before now I’m still coaching. When I coach people I’m interested in that. So if any of my clients are listening I’m interested in you and something about it has is felt different. Like I don’t have enthusiasm to start with new people and right now I’m just working with people that I’ve worked with in the past just very different.
09:12.43
Adam
Yeah, often it’s the case where coaches are how do I grow my practice. How do I get more clients and I’m hearing ah a contentment with what your coaching practice looks like these days.
09:24.35
Amiel
Absolutely,, There’s also been an enthusiasm to speak and this is really a big part of what we’re looking at here with my writing in my podcast is that moving out of the place of. I’m asking questions I’m bringing forth Other people’s lives and supporting and challenging them and growing and and the podcast interviewing them and researching them and helping them give the best version of themselves. What’s also merging is gosh I have a lot to say and it is killing me. It’s burning me. To not say it really like it’s painful and it’s not only painful for me but I’m an unpleasant person when I’m not saying things that are coming through me.
10:04.49
Adam
Um, yeah.
10:18.46
Amiel
Thoughts about the world Passions perspectives Critiques those are going into my conversations with my family and my friends and they’ve leaked things are leaking out. Power is leaking out in strange ways. Listen this is what I’ve noticed and I’ve not noticed it in that way I’ve noticed it that when I’m.
10:28.59
Adam
O.
10:38.14
Amiel
Feel like I’m expressing myself I’m more pleasant to be around. It’s only by writing more fully and sharing my perspective even in my podcast that I realize for the next hour 4 hours couple days. Hey. It’s all good I feel great I don’t need anything from people I’m just here and that’s so different because when I need something and I’m not getting a chance to respond to the call respond to the calling.
11:00.14
Adam
Yeah, yeah.
11:14.30
Amiel
Then I’m looking for it in these other interactions and that doesn’t go so well I think.
11:22.84
Adam
Ah yes, sounds like you’re noticing. It’s not going well or getting even feedback that it’s not going. Well.
11:28.82
Amiel
Yes, the feedback has been there for a while I just didn’t know how to respond to it.
11:34.77
Adam
Ah, but clearly it was their problem but not yours? Yeah, yeah, yeah, know to do about it right.
11:40.42
Amiel
I think I knew that it was me I just didn’t know what to do about it. You know how we say like each of us assumes. It’s either them or it’s me 90% of the time I assume it’s me and there’s a big super ego attack. It’s just like what what do I do so now there’s a way to x.
11:57.36
Adam
Yeah, know, right right? So this is something I’m really curious about because as you’ve been talking. You know you said it around fear like I really noticed this. Um.
11:59.97
Amiel
Something to do about it.
12:13.22
Adam
Deeper connection to fear around death and you palpably could feel into it and then even here around noticing what it’s like to not express yourself in the pain of not expressing yourself and how that shows up is like this. Thing that’s in the background that then influences how you interact with people so there’s a way you’re paying attention to yourself and I don’t know that this is something that everyone has access to this level of sensing what’s going on for them and it seems like it’s a real. Capacity or competency or bringing to this question of like how do I listen to my life and what do I want to do as a result so I’m curious if you could say this a little bit about you know what’s supported you in being able to pay attention at that level.
13:05.73
Amiel
Well my wife Julie who I mentioned before is a big part of that she listens really? Well. She has followed the trajectory of my experience and both of us have acknowledged that some of the conversations that I share with her are really old like I could have said the same thing fifteen years ago so I think it’s trying to change. Think we’re both noticing. It’s starting to change so she has just held that space incredibly well I am a student of the diamond approach again I was in the school for 8 years spiritual school
13:39.29
Adam
Oh.
13:57.47
Amiel
Created by a h almas for those are Hamid Ali for those who don’t know Karen Johnson and so on I left it for 8 years mostly for logistical reasons. But also because I just didn’t like sitting around a lot in the big groups. My butt started hurt I would stand up and stretch and.
14:09.12
Adam
The.
14:15.76
Amiel
So I’m not in a big group now I’m just doing 1 on one but my teacher frank has been enormously supportive and I also work with the therapist for two or three years before that and it’s all about like well what is what is this What’s happening right now. Just like getting curious about it and and feeling it and so then I feel um, like right now I’m feeling a little bit of sadness and I felt a lot of sadness about like lost years of like god I could have done this and it isn’t an inner critic attack. It’s really.
14:52.94
Adam
O.
14:53.60
Amiel
Just like a set a loss It’s like a grief because I know what an inner critic. It’s maybe 10% is that but it’s really because it’s emotional right? It’s emotional. It’s not angry. It’s not it’s not this it’s like it’s loss and so. Julie and and and and and frank my teacher and before that my therapist really helped me to to feel that and then also is is anger typically when I write something. It starts because I’m angry and my goal is to express clarity on the page without anger. So I have to take keep the clarity subtract the anger money. Good.
15:30.37
Adam
O.
15:45.80
Adam
Da ah piece a cake.
15:48.55
Amiel
Because there’s this feeling of often I read something or hears something I’m like oh right? and so and I want to kind of this yeah like kind of a push back or punch and.
15:55.99
Adam
Yeah.
16:05.15
Amiel
What I end up what ends up coming out is sort of a soft punch um, attempting to be more of a magnanimous polemic and I don’t know that it feels like a punch to me but it is punchy. In other words, it’s there’s oomph. To the writing people whoa and because I’m carving half dozen perspectives in a given piece of writing if somebody just encounters one that doesn’t resonate for them. It’s so fierce that they’re like oh this is horrible. And they may not even get to a section of the essay that they’d go. Oh. It’s so great to hear someone say that this has happened in ah my writing around israelis and Palestinians Gaza hamas Iran every every single time.
16:49.15
Adam
Her.
17:02.27
Adam
I can imagine.
17:02.76
Amiel
Write something this happens and I say hey it’s I probably wrote too long of a piece so you may not have gotten to this section yet. Why don’t you have a look at this other one and then tell me what you think and sometimes they do and they go Oh I Totally missed that I was so angry. But this other section I didn’t notice the other one. So I’m learning I’m still learning probably shorter pieces of writing or better.
17:31.86
Adam
Well, there’s all kinds of social commentary. We could be talking about with what you’re saying so far around. Well first of all being able to sit with anger long enough to have it diffuse so that it’s not the thing that’s forefront and that clarity can come through so how often does that actually take place in our world.
17:36.19
Amiel
Yes.
17:51.39
Adam
Most people are just I’m pissed I’m gonna tell you how pissed I am not really feeling into like what’s the deeper commitment or the thing that they’re really wanting to say so there’s a whole thing there and then this other part about.
18:00.16
Amiel
Yeah.
18:08.49
Adam
So I have capacity to stay with. However I’m feeling and keep going like with this essay I’m reading or am I just going to be like Nope done.
18:20.60
Amiel
Yeah, well said.
18:22.98
Adam
Yeah, so there’s a yeah, well there’s a couple things there the first one I’m really interested in is um, what’s the deeper commitment that you’re holding that has you want to stay in your anger.
18:34.76
Adam
Let it process so that you can find whatever clarity is there and then express that because that doesn’t come without real intention.
18:41.80
Amiel
Yeah, there’s 2 come to mind 1 is about how I engage and the other one is about the result in the world for how I engage I’ve been calling it fiercely nuanced so the commitment.
18:51.17
Adam
Ah.
18:56.41
Adam
Ah.
18:58.80
Amiel
That I really feel is to capturing multiple perspectives with oomph so that it’s more interesting to read or listen to and yet oomph often comes from a single singular single.
19:06.20
Adam
Sure yeah.
19:16.95
Amiel
Narrow polemical and so I have multiple polemicals in individual pieces and so my hope my commitment is to provide some clarity to illuminate. It’s like my 5 wing. And the enogrim the illumination of cutting through a lot of the confusion and capturing partial truths and different perspectives for the sake of people who are going oh my god it’s so polarized everyone thinks they’re right and other person is wrong and. Hopefully feeling. Ah, it’s so great to see someone who’s here with the complexity now the number of people who actually want that is relatively small if I wanted a bigger audience I’d be a much smarter about it right? ah.
20:05.21
Adam
Um, yeah, you all you would just be angry and loud and saying over and over and over again. Yeah yeah.
20:13.28
Amiel
It might be worth trying that I just can’t bring myself to it. Maybe maybe maybe one day so in terms of my method and how what I’m trying to create between me and other people in. Conversation. That’s it’s fiercely nuanced in terms of the world and this is where I feel more emotion. It’s helping people have their lives turn out better. Basically.
20:49.92
Adam
Ah.
20:52.25
Amiel
And there’s a fairness element that comes back from me being like a little kid that was picked on and then protected other people who are getting picked on which. Never provided any satisfaction or rewards only created enemies but it was still a commitment like somebody’s getting picked on I’m I’m gonna stand in there that impulse that everybody would have a fair shot this like unfairness in the world and.
21:10.71
Adam
Now.
21:26.52
Amiel
People have inner and outer barriers unfairness doesn’t mean the system is all bad but not everybody gets the support that they need for their own inner developments. So and then there’s a lot in the outer realm so that each person. Each child growing up has a minimally decent life. This is a term I picked up from a book twenty years ago called the 2% solution. It might be a different number. But I think it’s 2% basic premise was look at all the things we could do if we took 2% of the us federal budget and just dedicated it to ensuring that every person in the United States has a minimally decent life notice the language minimally decent. There’s a threshold There’s a floor so that means.
22:05.44
Adam
Ah.
22:10.64
Adam
O.
22:19.71
Amiel
You have shelter food schooling basic health care prenatal care and so on childcare it doesn’t mean everyone’s equal. It’s not It’s not about evening everything out in terms of results. But it’s in setting. Ah, basic floor and to me that’s like why aren’t we doing that we’re having arguments about whether we should be equalizing things and whether that cuts off opportunities for entrepreneurs and so on when the conversation that really is interesting to me is just like what’s what’s a minimally decent life. How do we define that and what can we provide outside and inside of people or help them provide for themselves to do that. So everything I’m writing about Middle East Ukraine democracy it’s about that.
23:16.16
Adam
Yeah, those are 2 big commitments. The first one in particular around um to me what was coming up is this analogy of like a garden full of weeds and you’re willing to sit there and sort of weed things out so that we can get to like what’s the true harvest in. This whole thing so sorting through the noise doing that hard work surfacing the nuance which takes a lot of dedication. Not just intellectual dedication. But as you’re talking about There’s lots of anger there and how do I stay in that. Get to whether the truths that are here and say it with um to me that means like how do I have the pertinent part or the part that is life giving not get lost but get communicated.
24:03.57
Amiel
Most weeding does require omph physically like you got to get in there and pull it out or you get that little shovel or whatnot you’re you’re pulling that out. What’s that little thing called it’s I always call it a little shovel but there’s another term for it with a T Whatever it is I.
24:06.18
Adam
Yeah, yeah.
24:17.36
Adam
There’s another term but you can tell you can tell we’re really experts gardeners here. Yeah.
24:22.66
Amiel
I do it I just don’t know what it’s called unfortunately I think it’s TRO something maybe some of your listeners will be like guys wake up educate yourselves. What are you doing with your lives but but the thing about weeding and I’m so glad you said that is.
24:29.89
Adam
Are.
24:42.35
Amiel
Weeding is different from planting seeds. Maybe I plant some seeds the thing about weeding is there. There needs to be some trust that someone is planting seeds and applying water and sunshine I can’t do it all myself and as I say that I feel very sad. It’s very humbling.
24:42.54
Adam
Right.
25:00.12
Amiel
Because um, one of the challenges I’ve had. It’s been a occlusion of sight. It’s been a a blinder is a grandiosity. It’s the 2 year old at age fifty almost fifty four thinking
25:11.68
Adam
Per her.
25:19.83
Amiel
I’m gonna do all this now I can feel it it used I stop drinking coffee. It would always happen the 20 minutes after a cup of coffee. But yeah.
25:26.32
Adam
I got it I can do it all. It’s going to happen today and then another 25 minutes later well I’ll get some of it today tomorrow.
25:39.23
Amiel
It’s well it’s great for initiating and extending. You just got to do it in that 30 minutes and then there’s a crash so I got off that cycle and all respect to the coffee drinkers out there different strokes for different folks.
25:44.16
Adam
Yeah.
25:55.14
Amiel
And that grandiosity whether it’s from caffeine or something else. Got it. It also it create it just creates and again I’m centered to type 6 in the Indiogram. So. There’s this just constant mental churning at my doing my doing life right? am I doing life right. I come back in the body and then the emotions and the grandiosity then feeds into that which is that not only am I doing right life right? It’s I’m supposed to be doing something really big. Maybe my dad’s voice comes into play or who knows someone’s voice comes into play from early age. You gotta do something big with your life and then you know that comparison a comparing mind comes in so I still work with that.
26:39.10
Adam
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but again, you’re pointing to this I’ll highlight it for me at least essential I’ll call it a capacity of listening. So seeing the seeing the grandiosity for connected to some maybe patterns from childhood or whatnot and then coming back to well. Okay, but what? ah what do I Really want to contribute here and what can I contribute here and what’s the sustainable thing that wants to come through. How was life wanting to speak through me and it is. Use your word humbling I would also say it’s confronting where we have to turn toward something and be like yeah that I have to let go of I have to let go of this inner impulse that inflates me that says I can do everything or I want to do it all and that’s the thing I need to keep chasing to. Let that balloon go so to Speak. It’s not easy and I’m curious like what supports you in letting that go and turning toward these commitments of you know we’ve been talking about this one where we got started of weeding the Garden. So The truths can be evident.
27:50.45
Amiel
Well, a couple things are coming to mind. Adam one is an actual experience that I’ve had and the other is an imagination a moment of imagination. So the actual experience is. Doing work that are being engaged in activities that really are meaningful and engaging to use 2 of the 3 definitions that Martin Seligman gives for happiness engaged life.
28:16.58
Adam
Ah.
28:23.83
Amiel
The pleasurable life for the meaningful life. So it’s engaging I feel like I’m in the flow and it’s meaningful. It feels that my heart is alive with the results of the work. They just like it matters to me and so I’m like what what is all that other stuff that grandiosity not who needs all that stuff like this this is it. This just feels great. There’s nothing else necessary so that’s an actual experience that I have and then there’s this is really in the last few months imagining what if that grandiose scenario came to pass what is that. What does that look like and.
29:03.57
Adam
Um, oh your Mike’s sitting here. Um sweatshirt sleeve there a little bit scratching it on the zipper we sorry.
29:11.79
Amiel
Okay, just that’s a sweater my friend. It’s okay, it’s finally but bought a good sweater but nonetheless. So what? what would that be like and I realized.
29:20.54
Adam
5
29:31.56
Amiel
It’s basically I’m famous I’m hanging out with really famous fascinating people I’m not hanging out with fascinating people who aren’t into big ideas I’m hanging out with public intellectuals and and there are a constant stream of people. Sending me positive messages and my podcast is incredibly popular and my writing is published in big places. Actually as I describe it. It sounds pretty good.
30:10.51
Amiel
Ah, So there’s a good part of that. Um, in the end in terms of impact on the world which I care about I Actually don’t know how much impact that would actually have like the real amazing thought leaders out there who are constantly. And the speaking circuit I don’t know that I’d be feeling any different I get a lot of positive hits a positive. Um, what what we call them Strokes positive strokes because there’s a lot of people saying oh great. Oh I Love your thing and I need a minimum.
30:40.50
Adam
O.
30:48.14
Amiel
Amount of that I’ve realized like if I write something and I get an email and someone describes what impact it had on them that makes my day I only need 1 or 2 per day people were getting a thousands of those per day.
30:55.15
Adam
Oh.
31:05.95
Amiel
That’s just more email and text to sort through great. So It’s kind of becoming aware of who needs all that it’s like I need to so like we’re saying minimally decent life. You need a certain amount of money resources and then there’s something well beyond that we know it doesn’t make people Happier. So. And I’m finding that as first season of the podcast continues and I continue to write just need to do it a little more do a little more frequently. So That’s the second on the second part of it I guess.
31:42.76
Adam
Um, I’ve been I mentioned her name earlier but I want to bring it in now and read the whole quote because I think it’s a lot of what we’re speaking to. It’s from Martha Graham who is a choreographer and dancer and she said there is a vitality a life force an energy. Ah, quickening that is translated through you into action and because there is only one of you and all of time. This expression is unique and if you block it. It will never exist through any other medium and it will be lost the world will not have it and this is the part I think. I was really clueing into when we were talking. It is not your business to determine how good it is nor how valuable nor how it compares with other expressions. It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly to keep the channel open.
32:36.41
Amiel
More of that please I mean that’s beautiful.
32:43.12
Adam
It is beautiful and to me inspiring and hopefully inspiring for others. The other thing that it feels to me is liberating because it ah and I think you’ve been speaking about this just through your own life. Allows for like really turning toward. Well, what’s really important that I want to pay attention to internally and turn them in myself and what do I want to do about that and how do I want to express that into the world and not be so concerned about.
33:14.68
Amiel
Yeah.
33:19.14
Adam
How big it is how grandiose it is or how small it is but really just what do I want to do and making sure that it does have a certain level of minimum viable life like there does need to be money that comes in because we. Need to pay bills and buy food and all of that but to keep all of that woven together and the thing I’ve been highlighting is like this way that you’re paying attention to like what’s the life inside of me. And when though I notice that that gets amplified and nurtured and when does it start to go dim or subdued. Yeah.
34:02.63
Amiel
Yes, yes yeah I want to respond to that I just want to set as a placeholder for a couple minutes. Ah from now about what makes that hard to do is coming to mind there. The word liberating is great.
34:12.11
Adam
Yeah, yeah.
34:19.74
Amiel
Cause that’s what I was feeling. She’s basically saying this is for you right? It’s okay, it’s okay to do this and it’s okay, not to do that. That’s a great That’s a great when someone tells you that whether it’s a friend to your face.
34:24.60
Adam
Right. Right.
34:38.47
Amiel
Martha Graham through the zeph from a book a talk either way, it’s it’s very very, um, it’s very freeing I mean I felt really really warm.
34:40.81
Adam
I Think it’s from a talk she gave. Yep.
34:55.67
Amiel
Now One of the things that makes it hard to notice that we’ve gone through several of them and maybe this is sort of my shtick in life is like here’s why things are hard just it comes up and then it’s like okay and here’s what you can do about it here’s the practices. But I start with here’s why it’s hard. Is is if you built a line of work or group of friendships or a network and those people know you in a certain way. They reinforce the sense of self you feel the sense of self then ah they don’t only reinforce the sense of self but they make requests to you This is true for people. Let’s say.
35:32.88
Amiel
Alcoholic and they’re around people who drink and they keep getting invited to go drink and they’re trying to stop and we know they have to start declining or counter offering and then getting to know new friends making new friends that’s kind of obvious in a sense. Um, if you want to play a new sport. You can’t learn how to play tennis by playing hanging out with football players unless they also play tennis you have to play with tennis players and so here for me gosh I’ve been in the leadership coaching and development community for a very long time in essence 30 years although I would say 2000 is when I moved the spring of 2000 is is when I moved to San Francisco and in my first 3 weekends there one was a roundtable and the other was me being a guest client boom.
36:30.10
Adam
Yeah, those are both a new ventures West offers full that are uncle clear. Yep.
36:30.28
Amiel
First 3 weeks thank you yeah new ventures west offers and they were great offers and it’s one of the best things that’s happened in my life being part of the community. It’s very you can see I’m feeling a lot of emotion around it. Um, and for two or three years in San Francisco when I was the person that answered the phones and was thinking about business development I felt like I was sort of at the center of the community oops. And so people know me and I knew them and it was It felt really good and that continued for a long time with new ventures west and and then in my work with with companies and clients. That’s what I’m known for what do you do? I coach leaders. Work with teams I don’t know that I can assert that today accurately. So I’ve had to change when I say which is hard plus I’ve never been overwhelmed with work I used to say got to be great to get 4 requests for every one that I accept.
37:34.60
Adam
Oh.
37:50.52
Amiel
That’s never been the case and I still am getting requests and from people wanting leadership development support often from like affiliate firms rather than the clients because that’s what I’m known for. And so that makes it hard people want you to keep doing something that Wow it’s a blessing to be good at it to be known for being good at it to have enjoyed it for so many years and then to be a bit more circumspect to take a pause. Before saying yes I mean I’m in conversations with 3 different companies right now about and it also you know it is money so that I think that makes it hard and so you have not only the.
38:36.73
Adam
Sure.
38:45.32
Amiel
Sense of self sense of identity sense of status. You know David rock neural leadershipdership the brain writes that status in the brain is. And essential social need. It should be at the bottom of Maslow’s hierarchy status autonomy relatedness fairness and so on so I have a status that I kind of wanted for a long time now I have it not that everyone knows me people are still like. Who are you? How can you help us that happens. But there’s a status and so it’s like letting go of that is is difficult. Um.
39:33.60
Adam
Um, and what keeps it what keeps it or what keeps you going what helps in the midst of that because I imagine just for listeners. There’s probably so many people who are like man. Yeah, listening to my life listening to this inner thing that all sounds great I don’t have time to do that or what does that even look like.
39:53.98
Amiel
Yeah, this may not be a very satisfying and conversation. Perhaps granted.
40:00.49
Adam
Ah, but I think well I um I think the background to my question is trying to surface things that you’ve been up to that have been helping this all along.
40:13.10
Amiel
Ah.
40:14.40
Adam
So yes, you’ve been doing these things for 20 years. For example, like leadership development and coaching and that also arises out of a particular way of like living a life that would allow you to meet clients and do work with them. So just more to the like background and you know and. Ventures West. We’re big on practices like what are the things that help cultivate things inside of us that allow for this kind of way of listeninging making hard decisions and you spoke about a couple earlier you know working with a therapist and Diamond Hard Teachin I’m wondering if there are other ways in which you support yourself.
40:35.68
Amiel
Um, ah oh sure.
40:51.90
Adam
Being in these things that make it hard.
40:52.90
Amiel
Yeah, all right now. Thank you for the background context now and I understand what you’re you’re asking and the practices I’m describing Maybe as useful for building up a coaching practice.
40:55.23
Adam
Um, yeah.
41:06.21
Adam
Yeah.
41:09.82
Amiel
Um, since two thousand when I discovered the life we are given by Michael Murphy and George Leonard 2 pioneers in human potential movement personal growth I’ve been doing some version of a morning. Practice that involves breathing centering grounding little yoga so that’s been a constant I do a truncated version of it now. But it’s a constant. Um.
41:42.13
Adam
Of.
41:51.86
Amiel
I Don’t drink any alcohol I gave up coffee I Still do a little black tea and those help me avoid the spikes and crashes still have some addiction to sugar but it doesn’t create. Same type of Crash. It’s really hard to do any of this when you’re crashing from a caffeine high or you have a headache because you’ve had a few drinks the night before if I had half of a beer right now I’d probably be like I’ll loopy because I just.
42:17.20
Adam
Or her.
42:28.50
Adam
You know.
42:28.96
Amiel
Haven’t done it for so long. Sleep has been a really important part something I ask all my clients about not just because it’s been a challenge for me because that would be the mistake of treating our clients as ourselves. More that sleep is a big challenge for many many people and the standard that we use to assess ourselves as having slept well is too low. Oh I got 6 hours yeah that’s generally not enough and a big thing was this may be helpful.
42:48.99
Adam
Yeah.
42:58.11
Adam
Yeah, yeah.
43:05.49
Amiel
To folks not necessarily in the area of sleep. But acknowledging I’ve got a physical thing that needs to be attended to like I have an issue and I At one point my wife said why don’t you talk to someone so he has sleep Apnea and I was so resistant I didn’t want that I didn’t want that. Um.
43:12.96
Adam
Maha.
43:24.38
Adam
Who.
43:24.60
Amiel
Like a pathological label I don’t want to be a person with sleep apnea using a cpap machine and putting a mask on every night I don’t want to be that type of person well like went might I went and talk to him and heard his story and how it was helping him. It’s like oh.
43:32.48
Adam
Right.
43:43.31
Amiel
Possibility here New possibility and so I went and got tested and sure enough I’d sleep Apnea So I started using it I’ve been very compliant as they say you got to be compliant. But I think that a lot of us have things.
43:46.74
Adam
Ah, ah.
43:58.62
Adam
Ah.
44:03.22
Amiel
As you said being confronted with like she confronted me with it and my own just moods in the morning confronted me with it. There’s something here that needs to be attended to and so now that is a practice I mean it doesn’t the mask doesn’t put itself on the little water tank doesn’t refill itself with distilled water.
44:16.66
Adam
Right.
44:23.20
Amiel
And when I travel to other countries. The hotel doesn’t have distilled water in my room for me to go out and get it So that’s um, there’s a lot more but maybe that gives me that some.
44:28.30
Adam
Right.
44:38.19
Adam
Yeah, that’s a great I think overview. Yeah, and the other thing I’m appreciating as you’ve been talking because you’ve been talking about this time span of you know, twenty years thirty years twenty five years. That’s long. It’s a long term commitment.
44:40.52
Amiel
Um, response.
44:56.97
Adam
And there’s like small evolutions of listening and shifting and changing and some of them are micro and then they kind of lead to a big change or a more noticeable pivot but that noticeable pivot didn’t just appear out of nowhere. It’s been supported by. Small things along the way little ways of listening little ways of turning towards sleep or diet or food or intake practices in the morning. So the ah consist I Guess what I’m getting to is like consistency over a long time.
45:34.20
Adam
Really supports some of what I’m feeling in this more now like more externally externally noticeable shift or pivot in how your you know your work is showing up but it didn’t just appear.
45:46.96
Amiel
Right? Yeah, so interpreting my story as a case for ongoing long-term deliberate practice would be a good and hopefully useful interpretation I Want to just say a couple things about that because I have.
45:59.12
Adam
O o.
46:07.60
Amiel
Dived into deliberate practice as not taking it from Buddhism or something like that but taking it from sports music performing Arts math that reps matter getting in your reps, whatever it is your practice really really matters and. Having the intention to improve or grow really matters. Um at times with my strength training I’ve actually dedicated a session to someone or something like I dedicate this to my father in law or I dedicate this to.
46:33.78
Adam
Oh.
46:41.82
Adam
Who.
46:43.14
Amiel
Harmony. It’s really changes the practice just to say upfront I dedicate you know how long it takes what does it take 5 seconds but suddenly the whole the practice has an entirely new meaning it’s not just okay I’m gonna do 5 of these and 10 of those. It’s like it’s for someone.
46:48.74
Adam
Yeah, great.
47:00.94
Amiel
Not just for me. It’s for the sake sake of someone else. It’s so helpful to have the intention to dedicate it and because every practice not every practice many practices that are useful are hard and you want to stop and as George Leonard taught us you hit the plateau.
47:09.20
Adam
Um, um.
47:20.60
Amiel
You hit the Plateau you often want to stop because either. It’s not cool and fun and groovy or you’re not seeing improvement and yet the Plateau is where actually a lot of growth happens and so it’s much easier in my experience to stay on the Plateau where you’re putting effort in. But at least practicing and not seeing a lot of outer results. It’s easier to do that if it’s dedicated to something larger and than you which is why this whole conversation we’re having around vocation. So important you dedicate your practice. It’s so important.
47:50.98
Adam
I was just exactly going to say that same thing like this dedication or commitment or orientation to something bigger than me and then the beautiful part and this is I think what the. Beautiful paradox of vocation is of course it includes you after you make that big Dedication. You’re like it’s not about me and then you realize oh but it has to include me in order for this to work.
48:22.58
Amiel
Yes, it does I once led this ah that me us all of us. There’s me. There’s us people who are like me my family my tribe my community my religion, whatever and then there’s all of us which is includes strangers people very different from me and I just I reminded me. That fifteen years ago I went back to my old high school because I’m still friends with a history teacher there who really influenced everything we’ve talked about about caring about the larger world and he was like the principal or class principal and they had an annual leadership retreat and he asked me to to come in and help.
48:49.59
Adam
Oh.
48:59.12
Amiel
Their annual leadership treat like what kind of senior year. Do we want to have and so one of the exercises I had them do was based on this and each person had 3 index cards and it was me us all of us and for each one of them they had to write down. 1 thing they wanted to have happen this year and it.
49:16.45
Adam
Ah.
49:17.86
Amiel
And for some people the us and all of us was a stretch that’s me it’s all about me and for other people naming the me is hard I’m here for others and and I really emphasize for them.
49:26.81
Adam
Um, yeah, right.
49:34.31
Amiel
Because the school was saying let’s do it for the class. What do you want to do for your class. We got to include me you got to include me.
49:42.97
Adam
Yeah, yeah, yeah I don’t know if I’m borrowing this from someone but I’ve heard it look the way I like to think about it that’s helpful for me at least is um I can only give away what I have.
49:55.69
Adam
If I want to give myself to something the more I have of myself the more I can give to it. Yeah well I’m curious on me if there’s anything else you want to share that we haven’t already touched on as we’re in this conversation about life trajectory vocation.
50:00.54
Amiel
Excellent.
50:15.81
Amiel
Well um I have a question which you’re not going to be able to answer but I am curious how listeners are hearing this and what it. So for all of you listening I’m curious curious how you’re experiencing me and also what.
50:34.22
Amiel
Relevance this has for your life. Maybe what insights? it’s providing you on the past. Maybe what possibilities it’s opening up or closing for the future like if there were a way to to hear that from people. It’d be really interesting to me. Um, particularly the more I talk about my own experience. Well it’s it’s said that when when people feel you feel you’re in your heart and sort of telling your story. It helps them to to experience their own story and to go through their own journey. So. That’s my hope in all this. Um, it is healing. You are helping me to heal and grow Adam just in our conversation by being able to go through this together because I said you caught me at a great time It’s a great time for you to be asking these wise and compassionate questions and I also hopeful that hope that it’s.
51:18.49
Adam
O.
51:29.29
Amiel
Um, that it’s helpful to others as well. Maybe that’s the last thing I I have to say.
51:35.27
Adam
Yeahs Yeah and I will meet you there and share that sentiment that it is that it’s like that moment when you read a book This has happened to me, you’re like oh my gosh. This person is giving language to something that I didn’t know is here and there it is expressed and that it’s like. Shining a light allowing for growth allowing for something to be seen.
51:55.87
Amiel
And we have to be very particular if we just share a universal message. It doesn’t help other people get into their particular circumstances. So you’re asking me about the vast fascinating and at times disturbing idiosyncrasies of my life.
52:02.53
Adam
Right.
52:15.97
Adam
Ah, right? Yes, yes, Absolutely yeah, well I’ve this has been an enlivening conversation for me speaking to.
52:17.30
Amiel
Legitimates that for others and oh what an interesting set of questions to be in. So I appreciate it very much Adam.
52:31.88
Adam
Just what you’re talking about. It’s been I could feel my own like a little life force inside growing and expanding like I feel Fuller inside I feel um, motivated and inspired to keep on my own path and I think this speaks to something you were. Threading throughout like you started with this with Julie having people in your life who reflect things back or who can see you and provide nourishment. So I’m feeling that in our conversation and how when life meets life it amplifies and wants to help.
52:54.17
Amiel
Yes, yes.
53:09.10
Adam
Help it grow. So I’m noticing that horse.
53:09.56
Amiel
May I add 1 thing to that which is we don’t know what’s going to happen in a conversation until we’ve had it which is why we have conversations for relationship or shared interest so you discover like this began as you inviting me or maybe i. Offered I can’t remember how it started but somehow we agreed to do this and with a particular focus for this podcast for this audience and then you shared with me. It would be video and I made sure that I looked half decent and now that we’re.
53:29.41
Adam
Yeah.
53:46.13
Amiel
At the end of it I’m saying Thanks man How much joy. Oh yeah, it’s like it’s kind of like that kind of people used to say this to me in my podcast all the time like this is so healing. This is a great like that’s what it’s like because we don’t know until we have that experience and are present with each other. What it yields. So.
53:52.32
Adam
If.
54:06.20
Amiel
That’s mild name. My last observation.
54:06.98
Adam
Yeah, well in another invitation for us all to be in true conversation and this is what can happen? Yeah, all right on me. Well thank you so much.
54:18.12
Amiel
Amen. Thank you.